Did you think of pirates when multiplayer was opted out?

For discussion about Trine, firstly released in 2009 for Windows and on PlayStation Network.
project_demon
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Did you think of pirates when multiplayer was opted out?

Postby project_demon » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:59 am

FB_Lauri wrote:I'll quote myself from another discussion a few topics below:

FB_Lauri wrote:We understand this and would also love to have online co-op, but that's something technology-wise what would cost and delay the game way too much if aimed for release date. For us, it's been a tough decision and we have understood we will lose players since this, but for a small studio doing it's first PS3 title it would just been too great risk to do everything at once.

From our point of view, sure we could implemented the online co-op at the first place, but most likely it would have cost so much time and effort that all other parts of the game would sucked. And if we would had a sucky game with online co-op, no-one would have ever paid interest to it and Trine would only been another no-good title vanishing among the hundreds of other titles.

Now, by sacrifying the online features from the launch we are able to deliver a very good single player title, which still has same system 3 player co-op. I understand this only makes you even more sad, but I still have to say Trine's single system co-op rocks and has been super fun in our every tests, among with the single player experience.


To add to myself, while I understand people see Trine as co-op only game, it's made as a single player game, later it's been shifted to PS3 (where local co-op is still "accepted"), and then again made to PC without sacking any features, not even the useless local co-op.

We would like to think that local co-op is just additional fun to a solid single player game. However, I agree that with online features Trine would be a lot better, but with it we really had to pick between "Crappy game with online" or "Solid game without online, with everyone hating us" :?


No matter how amazing, revolutionary, spectacular, breathtaking, etc. the game is, there will be pirating going on. But why? If a game is really good doesn't it deserve your money? In my opinion, yes it does. We still have to buy it to support the team of developers behind it so future games/patches can be made. But unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world, that being said, a lot of people will fail to see why they should pay for this game when they might be able to pirate it and there's no multiplayer aspect that forces them to own the game (cd key) so they can play online.

It is for that reason that many companies try their best to include a multiplayer because it is the multiplayer aspect of the game that will lure these people into buying it.

Now here's what i don't understand. We're in the year 2009 and yet some developers are still putting a lot of time, effort and money to develop singleplayer games?!?... What? Why? How? God be with you! Let's be realistic here, pirated games are so widely "available" these days that by developing a singleplayer game you would be basically stepping on your toes (especially with a price of $40). True, you might sell a lot of copies, true you might be satisfied with the level of success that the game had, but you would have surely done so much better if the game was not solely singleplayer (hands down, assuming that you were satisfied with the level of success without multiplayer).

From our point of view, sure we could implemented the online co-op at the first place, but most likely it would have cost so much time and effort that all other parts of the game would sucked. And if we would had a sucky game with online co-op, no-one would have ever paid interest to it and Trine would only been another no-good title vanishing among the hundreds of other titles.


True if you have a strict deadline, but having a time limit will decrease the quality of your game. I'm not saying take all the time in the world, but something reasonable. If having multiplayer would have taken you anywhere between 3-8 extra months, It's well worth the wait imo.

Now, by sacrifying the online features from the launch we are able to deliver a very good single player title, which still has same system 3 player co-op. I understand this only makes you even more sad, but I still have to say Trine's single system co-op rocks and has been super fun in our every tests, among with the single player experience.


How do you play 3 co-op on a computer with only 1 keyboard and mouse? It seems like it was designed for consoles.
Also, you said "by sacrifying the online features from the launch", now if you guys are planning to add multiplayer to the game later on, quoting from above "it would have cost so much time and effort". Doesn't this take us back to square one where multiplayer was opted out due to the latter reasons.

On a side note, great game overall, bought it on steam, i was impressed with the level of details and also the story seems interesting, looking forward for the full thing :D

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FB_Lauri
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Re: Did you think of pirates when multiplayer was opted out?

Postby FB_Lauri » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:17 pm

Our design philosophy requires maximum amount of troubles, pain, fights and best of all, poorness, to be able to do great games.

As far as I can see we have succeeded well in both seeking troubles and with the game itself :D

project_demon
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Re: Did you think of pirates when multiplayer was opted out?

Postby project_demon » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:22 pm

FB_Lauri wrote:Our design philosophy requires maximum amount of troubles, pain, fights and best of all, poorness, to be able to do great games.

As far as I can see we have succeeded well in both seeking troubles and with the game itself :D


Why are you still up @ 5 am lol (actually i don't know what time it is there, i duno why i assumed it's US Eastern).
Well, i mean these days multiplayer is almost like a given in the gaming world lol, that's probably why a lot of people are pissed off.
Last edited by project_demon on Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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FB_Lauri
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Re: Did you think of pirates when multiplayer was opted out?

Postby FB_Lauri » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:24 pm

project_demon wrote:
FB_Lauri wrote:Our design philosophy requires maximum amount of troubles, pain, fights and best of all, poorness, to be able to do great games.

As far as I can see we have succeeded well in both seeking troubles and with the game itself :D


Why are you still up @ 5 am lol


The real question would be why I'm answering all the questions when it's my vacation and I'm in Japan (it's 6:30 pm here).

Oh and the answer is, since I love Trine and this community, even it's a bit controversial sometimes :wink:

project_demon
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Re: Did you think of pirates when multiplayer was opted out?

Postby project_demon » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:29 pm

ya that's what i thought, you replied too quick lol, guess u didn't catch my edited
Why are you still up @ 5 am lol (actually i don't know what time it is there, i duno why i assumed it's US Eastern).


Enjoy your vacation, i was actually thinking of going to Japan next summer, should be fun. Just out of curiosity, is the game done and waiting to be released?

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FB_Lauri
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Re: Did you think of pirates when multiplayer was opted out?

Postby FB_Lauri » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:42 pm

project_demon wrote:Enjoy your vacation, i was actually thinking of going to Japan next summer, should be fun. Just out of curiosity, is the game done and waiting to be released?


Yes, both versions have been ready for .. well, ages in my calendar (as I'm so anxious to wait for the release), but I suppose a few weeks or so. Note: being ready doesn't mean there won't be some probems with versions, and yes, we have had problems. But the dev team has escaped to vacation, and there's only some people who are now struggling with the final setups, installers, documentations etc.

(and while Japan is great, I really enjoy the forums aswell :D )

SirDrago
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Re: Did you think of pirates when multiplayer was opted out?

Postby SirDrago » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:52 pm

project_demon wrote:Now here's what i don't understand. We're in the year 2009 and yet some developers are still putting a lot of time, effort and money to develop singleplayer games?!?... What? Why? How? God be with you! Let's be realistic here, pirated games are so widely "available" these days that by developing a singleplayer game you would be basically stepping on your toes (especially with a price of $40). True, you might sell a lot of copies, true you might be satisfied with the level of success that the game had, but you would have surely done so much better if the game was not solely singleplayer (hands down, assuming that you were satisfied with the level of success without multiplayer).


OMG why is everyone complaining? Just shut up. Play the game. Multiplayer is just overrated. I personally like to just play a game by myself and not connect to the multiplayer where half of the people are being idiots, acting like little kids or are just so "pro" that they wont play with random people. Multiplayer is a nice addition to some games but honestly i dont see a point playing Trine co op. The core is singleplayer. If people just cant play a normal single player anymore then they should play MP games to boost their undeveloped ego.

project_demon
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Re: Did you think of pirates when multiplayer was opted out?

Postby project_demon » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:54 pm

Good, looking forward to playing the full game. I really hope there will be a level editor :) then i wouldn't really mind the lack of multiplayer.

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FB_Lauri
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Re: Did you think of pirates when multiplayer was opted out?

Postby FB_Lauri » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:00 pm

project_demon wrote:Good, looking forward to playing the full game. I really hope there will be a level editor :) then i wouldn't really mind the lack of multiplayer.


Releasing the editor for PC is easy, but doing maps with it is super hard (currently, there is only two person in the world who are able to use it perfectly, who are our gameplay level designer, and our level artist). However, it's a good editor with plenty of features (heck, Trine has been made with it!).

In order to make any sense for releasing the editor it would require us to write documentation, make plenty of tutorials etc., which again requires time and money. So, we have to see how strong the community grows, and judge by that.

project_demon
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Re: Did you think of pirates when multiplayer was opted out?

Postby project_demon » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:07 pm

FB_Lauri wrote:
project_demon wrote:Good, looking forward to playing the full game. I really hope there will be a level editor :) then i wouldn't really mind the lack of multiplayer.


Releasing the editor for PC is easy, but doing maps with it is super hard (currently, there is only two person in the world who are able to use it perfectly, who are our gameplay level designer, and our level artist). However, it's a good editor with plenty of features (heck, Trine has been made with it!).

In order to make any sense for releasing the editor it would require us to write documentation, make plenty of tutorials etc., which again requires time and money. So, we have to see how strong the community grows, and judge by that.


Super Hard you say, so it's not like making maps for Fantastic Contraption :P, i'm sure you guys have discussed this and probably have plans, but what if you just release the editor with no tutorials/help/documentaries is it really like impossibly difficult as in only those that built the editor know how to use it lol ?

jyohan
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Re: Did you think of pirates when multiplayer was opted out?

Postby jyohan » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:21 pm

project_demon wrote:
FB_Lauri wrote:
project_demon wrote:Good, looking forward to playing the full game. I really hope there will be a level editor :) then i wouldn't really mind the lack of multiplayer.


Releasing the editor for PC is easy, but doing maps with it is super hard (currently, there is only two person in the world who are able to use it perfectly, who are our gameplay level designer, and our level artist). However, it's a good editor with plenty of features (heck, Trine has been made with it!).

In order to make any sense for releasing the editor it would require us to write documentation, make plenty of tutorials etc., which again requires time and money. So, we have to see how strong the community grows, and judge by that.


Super Hard you say, so it's not like making maps for Fantastic Contraption :P, i'm sure you guys have discussed this and probably have plans, but what if you just release the editor with no tutorials/help/documentaries is it really like impossibly difficult as in only those that built the editor know how to use it lol ?

Nothings that hard. Release it skilled people get there hands on it figure it out make there own documentation and tutorials and put them up on a fan site with no cost to there company.

SirDrago
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Re: Did you think of pirates when multiplayer was opted out?

Postby SirDrago » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:25 pm

I think its funny. Before the game is even out people just demand a level editor like its their right.

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FB_Lauri
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Re: Did you think of pirates when multiplayer was opted out?

Postby FB_Lauri » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:12 pm

SirDrago wrote:I think its funny. Before the game is even out people just demand a level editor like its their right.


It's perfectly ok, for once someting we can actually supply without destroying our company :)

(But no promises made yet!)

FlukeRogi
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Re: Did you think of pirates when multiplayer was opted out?

Postby FlukeRogi » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:28 pm

FB_Lauri wrote:it's my vacation and I'm in Japan (it's 6:30 pm here).


Cool. Yoi kyuujitsu o :) (or something like that!)

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FB_Lauri
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Re: Did you think of pirates when multiplayer was opted out?

Postby FB_Lauri » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:35 pm

FlukeRogi wrote:
FB_Lauri wrote:it's my vacation and I'm in Japan (it's 6:30 pm here).


Cool. Yoi kyuujitsu o :) (or something like that!)


I'm afraid my vocabulary in Japanese is limited to ordering beer. :wink:

DarkJee
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Re: Did you think of pirates when multiplayer was opted out?

Postby DarkJee » Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:48 pm

FB_Lauri wrote:Releasing the editor for PC is easy, but doing maps with it is super hard (currently, there is only two person in the world who are able to use it perfectly, who are our gameplay level designer, and our level artist). However, it's a good editor with plenty of features (heck, Trine has been made with it!).

In order to make any sense for releasing the editor it would require us to write documentation, make plenty of tutorials etc., which again requires time and money. So, we have to see how strong the community grows, and judge by that.


Just for curiosity, would it be harder to develop a more user-friendly editor and documentation or an online co-op mode?

djdna
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Re: Did you think of pirates when multiplayer was opted out?

Postby djdna » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:50 pm

i for one am very glad to see pc games with local multiplayer!!!

i dont know why there is such a taboo about people having their pc hooked up to an HDTV but i do it and it looks better than any console and allows me to do a lot more than just gaming in comfort!!

so yeah im very happy to see you guys kept the local co-op mode in for us pc gamers :) thanks!

aoetje
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Re: Did you think of pirates when multiplayer was opted out?

Postby aoetje » Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:06 pm

Lauri, you know why there are only 2 people on this world who can operate your level editor? Because only they (and the rest of your crew) have the access to it.
I say release the editor, there is so many smart, talented gamers/casual designers etc. they will figure it out, thats one thing, second thing, they will create new content for your game, thus making it more viable to buy the game.
I hope one day you reconsider implementing multiplayer, because right now the game without multiplayer, and as expensive as it is for a side-scroller the only option for me is a pirate copy. Now i dont wanna get a pirate copy, because you worked hard on your game, so i will have to wait till it gets cheaper, or buy a used copy, but there will be a lot of people who will turn to illegal copies.

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FB_Lauri
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Re: Did you think of pirates when multiplayer was opted out?

Postby FB_Lauri » Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:59 pm

aoetje wrote:Lauri, you know why there are only 2 people on this world who can operate your level editor? Because only they (and the rest of your crew) have the access to it.
I say release the editor, there is so many smart, talented gamers/casual designers etc. they will figure it out, thats one thing, second thing, they will create new content for your game, thus making it more viable to buy the game.
I hope one day you reconsider implementing multiplayer, because right now the game without multiplayer, and as expensive as it is for a side-scroller the only option for me is a pirate copy. Now i dont wanna get a pirate copy, because you worked hard on your game, so i will have to wait till it gets cheaper, or buy a used copy, but there will be a lot of people who will turn to illegal copies.


We will definitely look into releasing the tools, but it will take a while as it requires both technical implementation and some documentation.

qeinar
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Re: Did you think of pirates when multiplayer was opted out?

Postby qeinar » Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:44 pm

Hmm major bump. After reading alot of threads I've come to understanding that making an online coop mode doesn't seem like an option due to the resources and such needed to make it. That is kinda sad since coop seem to add soem more challenge to the game, and I do not have extra controllers so i can't have friends over to play with me. Also you should releasing the SDK would be awesome, people will put time and effort into trying to understand it and people will probably understand it and then write tutorials for it so that other people can understand it. It beeing complex would just mean you can do alot of stuff with it, and thus manny awesome levels will be made.

DrTall
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Re: Did you think of pirates when multiplayer was opted out?

Postby DrTall » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:15 pm

+1 for very interested in level editor and I'll survive without documentation for it.

newOne
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Re: Did you think of pirates when multiplayer was opted out?

Postby newOne » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:29 pm

FB_Lauri wrote:
project_demon wrote:Good, looking forward to playing the full game. I really hope there will be a level editor :) then i wouldn't really mind the lack of multiplayer.


Releasing the editor for PC is easy, but doing maps with it is super hard (currently, there is only two person in the world who are able to use it perfectly, who are our gameplay level designer, and our level artist). However, it's a good editor with plenty of features (heck, Trine has been made with it!).

In order to make any sense for releasing the editor it would require us to write documentation, make plenty of tutorials etc., which again requires time and money. So, we have to see how strong the community grows, and judge by that.


I would like to hear more of level editor.
What is needed to make a level?
a Outside programs like maya 3d
b programming in c++?
c or everything can be made in level editor with no programing languages needed?
If its c then i cant wait to put my hands on editor and be the first fan who made a cool level.
Then i have read where you mention only 2 persons are using that editor perfectly i start imagined im one of them :)
I wouldnt mind to pay some cash for editor without documentation just to start using editor whether i suceed or not :)

P.S. i hope singleplayer games wont dissapear since they always give more depth in to the game.

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FB_Lauri
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Re: Did you think of pirates when multiplayer was opted out?

Postby FB_Lauri » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:29 pm

c) everything is made in the level editor and no outside programs are needed.

To make a great level for Trine, you however need:

1) ability to do fun gameplay for a level
2) great (audio)visual skills to place art assets, lights and both particle and audio effects in place
3) some scripting skills to make simple or a bit complicated physics things to happen
4) many friends to test the level
5) nerves of steel


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