Trine 2 has blown me away! 3D Vision

For discussion about Trine 2, released in December 2011 on Windows, Mac, Xbox, PlayStation Network and later on Linux and Wii U.
artox
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Re: Trine 2 has blown me away! 3D Vision

Postby artox » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:10 pm

@fb_juha
Awesome news, will definitely test SBS ASAP and report back. Is it selectable in-game or should one select the stereoscopic mode from the launcher, since there was only a stereo on/off option in the game before?
@ Zybex
It's true that Panasonic plasmas offer the least amount of ghosting, however as gaming 3dtvs Samsung's 2010 models have been praised for their compatibility with checkerboard and frame-packed at 30hz with 1080p resolution. Regardless, the future is 1080p at 60hz per eye and I'm certain that if not this year's models, than the 2013 ones will allow for this standard. We should also consider that 4k models will be the ones to incorporate [email protected] stereo-3d, I doubt that the newer hdmi chips will be incorporated in tvs that don't allow for 4k (I hope I'm wrong). As for best picture quality with zero ghosting everyone knows that HMDs are the way to go and this CES has showed that there is a lot to wait for.
To finish I'll just say that I think a valid way to combat ghosting is not only making hardware better, but also software. Autofocus is a must feature. I've recently played the god of war psp collection for ps3 in s-3d on my tv and I have to say, that the game has both pop-out, depth and very little if any ghosting. This is because every scene is modified to offer the least possible ghosting. The way I understand it is that the maximum amount of depth and the convergence point are scripted per area or through an algorithm. The pc allows for a lot of flexibility in terms of setting the stereo, but there is no game-incorporated autofocus. This is not to say that great games in s-3d cannot be made without this feature and Trine 2 is the first game on PC I've seen to deliver a s-3d gaming experience on par with what Avatar has accomplished in the cinema. I do not mean to undermine the success of other 3d-ready titles, but no other game has offered such flexibility in s-3d on the pc. If I have to make a choice between Avatar and Trine 2, when showing off my 3dtv, Trine would win without breaking a sweat.

artox
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Re: Trine 2 has blown me away! 3D Vision

Postby artox » Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:27 pm

I just saw your post here -
http://forum.iz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=5760
"Please note that you need to disable 3D Vision / iZ3D drivers in order to use manual stereo modes (including HD3D)"
Guess this is why I missed the new outputs after updating to 1.12, since I had 3dvision enabled when I tested.
I've posted on the new modes in the 3dvision thread: http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?show ... try1365912
Be sure to check on any problems there too, as I'm sure 3dvision users will be eager to test some internal modes as well.

artox
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Re: Trine 2 has blown me away! 3D Vision

Postby artox » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:40 am

Ok, I've tested SBS and Top-Bottom at [email protected] and I can say it is much more pleasing than 720p frame-packed with 3dvision. I only wanted to ask you guys would you recommend using the internal SBS or the one from iz3d, personally I see no sense in using iz3d's, but you are probably more familiar with the any limitations from the two images being squashed and then expanded, which results in image quality loss.
I don't have the necessary hardware to test the other modes, but I like to congratulate you on the great job with this patch, it will definitely help widen the audience :)

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fb_juha
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Re: Trine 2 has blown me away! 3D Vision

Postby fb_juha » Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:45 pm

artox wrote:Ok, I've tested SBS and Top-Bottom at [email protected] and I can say it is much more pleasing than 720p frame-packed with 3dvision. I only wanted to ask you guys would you recommend using the internal SBS or the one from iz3d, personally I see no sense in using iz3d's, but you are probably more familiar with the any limitations from the two images being squashed and then expanded, which results in image quality loss.
I don't have the necessary hardware to test the other modes, but I like to congratulate you on the great job with this patch, it will definitely help widen the audience :)


Thank you!

For SBS/Top-Bottom modes we render the frame in full resolution and then filter it down to half resolution. This filtering gives 2x super sample anti-aliasing for the squeezed image, so it will retain as much of the original detail as possible. Only possible improvement for this which iz3d might be doing would be doing the final half resolution squeezing in linear color space (as it's done in gamma space currently), but I'd expect the difference being not that big - especially if using our launcher based anti-aliasing options. When we hook up to iz3d driver we give it two full resolution images and it will combine them to a single frame in some unknown way to us - I'd imagine it's identical to what we do.

Also, just to clear it up, anti-aliasing options in the launcher are orthogonal to super sampling mentioned above. If you select 2x super sampling from the launcher, we render the full resolution frame with 2x supersampling and after that the resulting frame is scaled down to half size. This super sampling is gamma-correct and is done in linear space.

In short, our internal modes should give you more or less the same quality as iz3d. It's more of a convenience choice - if you usually have it enabled then there probably isn't any need to enable/disable it for Trine2.

artox
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Re: Trine 2 has blown me away! 3D Vision

Postby artox » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:54 pm

fb_juha thank you for the detailed response, I am not that familiar with gamma and linear spaces (tried to do some reading in wiki, but still don't know that much), but from this thread - http://forum.iz3d.com/viewtopic.php?p=10985#10985, where Zerofool has asked on the scaling for iz3d, it seems that iz3d used to apply "standard bilinear interpolation on GPU (StretchRect)." I don't know if this is currently still the case.
I think I'll stick to the internal modes :)

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fb_juha
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Re: Trine 2 has blown me away! 3D Vision

Postby fb_juha » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:14 pm

artox wrote:fb_juha thank you for the detailed response, I am not that familiar with gamma and linear spaces (tried to do some reading in wiki, but still don't know that much), but from this thread - http://forum.iz3d.com/viewtopic.php?p=10985#10985, where Zerofool has asked on the scaling for iz3d, it seems that iz3d used to apply "standard bilinear interpolation on GPU (StretchRect)." I don't know if this is currently still the case.
I think I'll stick to the internal modes :)


Yes, for our SBS/TB squeezing we use StretchRect as well - simply because that was the fastest way to implement those features. We use basic bilinear scaling for both our super sample AA and for our manual stereo modes (with the difference that former is done in linear color space). I haven't done any quality comparisons with different algorithms to see what the difference would be.

In case you are interested, gamma space is a non-linear compression format to get most out of 8-bit color (0..255) values. It's great for storing images in smaller space, but it makes it more tricky to do math on the values that are in gamma space. If you combine two values, 0 and 255, to a single value the correct result is not 128. To do linear math on color values, you first need to convert values from gamma space to linear space, do the math and then convert back to gamma space. Midway between 0 and 255 is actually 187.

What algorithm you use for scaling and if you apply it for linear or gamma values are orthogonal issues. In our case, as anti-aliasing has been done in gamma correct way it reduces the gamma scaling error somewhat. That said, I might have to play more with this when I have a moment :).

artox
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Re: Trine 2 has blown me away! 3D Vision

Postby artox » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:11 pm

Thanks for the in-depth explanation. I've sent you a PM regarding the Panasonic 3dtvs, I'm interesred in hearing your opinion when you have the time :)

klje
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Re: Trine 2 has blown me away! 3D Vision

Postby klje » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:37 am

Hi

I know this is an old thread - but I couldn't find any newer ones on the subject:

I just installed Trine2 in Linux Steam Beta - and was wondering if it would be possible to run the game using SBS stereoscopic 3D video, as mentioned here? I'm not sure if it's included in the linux version of the game, but if it is, can't seem to find anywhere to configure it. Sorry if I missed something.

The only linux game I can find that uses SBS 3D is "The Polynomial" - and it looks amazing. I'd love to be able to play Trine 2 in 3D on linux as well.


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