Awesome game, wish it was harder though...

For discussion about Trine 2, released in December 2011 on Windows, Mac, Xbox, PlayStation Network and later on Linux and Wii U.
Soulmancer
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Awesome game, wish it was harder though...

Postby Soulmancer » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:44 am

I am having a blast with Trine 2, great and fun game but playing co-op with a friend last night on hard for hours we couldn't help but feel like the game runs with cheats automaticly on. Dieing is completely irrelevant since all you have to do is walk back to a check point to re-spawn any dead ally and if you get wiped out completely it doesn't make a difference since when you re-spawn, all enemies you had killed along that path are still dead and bosses are still injured. It makes it feel like we're playing with a god mode cheat enabled.

You can also exploit a lot of puzzles too easily if just one player makes it through, since if they run on ahead the other players left behind will simply teleport to the player who is further along.

I love the game but it's a bit too casual; I hope a future patch or content update can add some type of "hardcore" game play so you can't exploit puzzles so easily in multiplayer or to make it so dieing is something you actually want to avoid somewhat.

Treznor
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Re: Awesome game, wish it was harder though...

Postby Treznor » Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:01 am

I couldn't agree more. There is a small trick that makes it even easier. With warlock, create two boxes. Stand on them. Make the one on the bottom float and you can fly wherever you want. With this figured out there its even less challenging.

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FB_Esa
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Re: Awesome game, wish it was harder though...

Postby FB_Esa » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:41 am

This all comes down to the players choice. If they want to make the game easier (ie, use the flying or the teleport "trick") then they can but they dont really have to.
The game isn't meant to be a chore but to have fun with your friends and kill some goblins! :)

Soulmancer
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Re: Awesome game, wish it was harder though...

Postby Soulmancer » Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:41 pm

Well I realize there is a choice when it comes to cheating your way through puzzles, there is no choice when it comes to cheating your way through combat since dying in the game is trivial. There is no negative impact if anyone dies or if even your whole team is killed and you have to re-start from the last check point; the game seems like it runs with a forced god-mode cheat enabled that you can't turn off. I understand there probably isn't much that can be done about the "puzzle cheating" but I'd certainly love to see an option for a more hardcore experience... that makes it so checkpoints don't heal fallen heroes and that when you die and re-start from a check point monsters between the check point and where you died revive and bosses heal their health. I understand the game is meant to be casual and fun, but under the current system the combat difficulty setting is pointless. Me and my friends love the game, but we want a better challenge so we have to rely more on skill through the game rather then moving forward while invincible.

Treznor
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Re: Awesome game, wish it was harder though...

Postby Treznor » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:36 pm

I do agree with soulmancer, that would be really nice. About the flying and/or teleporting (which I didnt know of) I never use cheats because that just spoils the game. As in, entering some kind of code that makes you invincible or something. That's something I would consider lame. Flying however, is just exploiting the game options. And isn't that what a game is all about? Making the most of it? Not flying is like not using the archers rope, or the warriors shield. Therefore, I think it should be removed.

I do get your point, Esa, it's great there are different ways to solve a puzzle. However, one should not be so easy you can ignore all the other objects. I'd say: finding a way to overcome certain puzzles is challenging. One single solution that solves every puzzle should not be in it. But that's my opinion.

Don't get me wrong, it's not like I'm saying it's a bad game. The opposite in fact, I love it. The graphics are amazing and I'll buy the game twice, for the pc and ps3 version. I just don't like the easiness. And the bug, that occured when I was fighting the first real boss. I already said this somewhere else, but I just walked to the left side of the level and he couldn't reach me. First he got stuck (like it was supposed to) but then he just couldn't hit me.

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FB_Esa
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Re: Awesome game, wish it was harder though...

Postby FB_Esa » Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:26 pm

I too undestand where you are both coming from and to Soulmancer i can say that in the next patch we are going to change the resurrect mechanic of the boss fight on normal/hard difficulty. Don't really know what can be done with the "normal" combat tho but we take all suggestions for consideration so... You'll never know :wink:

About the flying.
I don't personally think not-flying is the same as not using Zoya's rope or Pontius' shield. It's there as a choice but its in no way mandatory. Like i said before. If you want to use it, you can. But you are in no way obligated to do so.
It all comes down to player choice like you said. The only one making you use these abilities is... Well you :)
There are parts of the game that can't be solved with simply flying tho so its not the "ultimate" cheat in that regard.

Hope i wasn't too forward with this post. Like i said, i do know where you are both coming from and i understand it completely as i myself like to be challenged.

Ps. In any way, i will forward these suggestions to our designers. So no worries there :)
Pss. Just got the info that we are looking for solutions for making the game harder (including normal combat). No promises tho! :P

Soulmancer
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Re: Awesome game, wish it was harder though...

Postby Soulmancer » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:40 am

Thanks! Glad to hear;

With combat and death in general if I can make a suggestion... On Normal and/or even just Hard mode only make it so check points don't heal fallen heroes... And if the team is wiped out, when they re-spawn at the check point make it so bosses heal their health and fallen enemies beyond that check-point re-spawn but don't give any additional experience when killed... This would go a long way to making progression more challenging and offer a lot more team-oriented strategy in getting through the game!

That's combat at least, I don't have any suggestions really on how puzzle-cheating can be avoided, as that's more of a choice really. I just found it a bit silly that as long as one player can get through a puzzle or tricky area, all they have to do is run forward and the rest of the team warps to their location. That was really my only gripe with the puzzle skipping.

Thanks for a great game!

mystvearn
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Re: Awesome game, wish it was harder though...

Postby mystvearn » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:31 am

I like the game at its current pace. Played it twice. Once local co-op and next time alone.

1st time: Local Co-op (with wife)
Got a lot of achievements, if jumping is too hard, I just use the wizard's "float" function. I noticed that if the jumping sequence was too hard, my wife gave me her joypad and I have to jump around. This was evident with the last boss in Trine 1 where I played the last level alone. Too hard makes it less fun for casual gamers. Took 3 days to complete.

2nd time: alone
Went through everything alone. There was few floating orbs high up which I do not see any way of getting it unless using the floating mechanism co-op. Took 2 day form afternoon-night. Faster playing alone.

On the force god-mode is fine with me. There are achievements where you actually need to sacrifice your thief first time by dangling and then changing to explosion arrow resulting in instant death and you need to use the thief again to get it by respawning at check point. Also, in the latter levels, especially the acid and the fire levels, co-op floating mode may be the best mode to avoid frustration when collecting orbs.

Suggestion:
If possible a split screen is featured in future? The split screen function used in lego harry potter games where its not static split screen. I know it will ruin the background view as its gorgeous but in local co-op there was the jumping sequence in the ice stage where you need to get water then jump up. I was too far up and can't progress and have to wait/take control of the other player just to jump back up with me. The second instant was in the ice stage as well with the sliding and broken bridges with icicles raining from above. Reason I say this is because if you get a good and novice player together the movement of the good player is handicapped sometimes by the novice player. Also if its going to be harder, then split screen could help a lot.

Treznor
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Re: Awesome game, wish it was harder though...

Postby Treznor » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:56 pm

@Mystvearn: But if the easy setting will be the same and the hard difficulty will have some changes for the non-casual gamer, it should be fine.

@Soulmancer: You're suggesting they remove the healing of the fallen heroes. This would cause unsolvable puzzle. Sometimes you really need the warlock to solve puzzles and if he can't be ressurected you will be stuck. It's hard to state when it's combat related or not.

I'd say: remove some of the checkpoints (for example, the one at the troll boss) so you can't fight at the checkpoint and get healed all the time. Also, continuing from last checkpoint should be changed to 'restart from last checkpoint' so people have to do everything again. This will force players to play a little bit more carefull.

not sure if this would make it 'too' hard but I would, for sure, play this setting until my hands fell off.

About the flying... ehm well. I'm still convinced it should be removed :P

Oh I came up with another idea that could be interesting and shouldn't be too much work, I think. Add options to do speedruns with ingame timescores. Like: level 1 has been cleared in 5 min. So far I've done some speedruns myself and I would love to see this being an option. This will also be interesting for hardcore gamers.

Last: I downloaded the ps3 version yesterday (using usa gamecard) and noticed the rope mechanic of the thief is a little bit different. It now auto-attaches platforms. But when there are no platforms and you use the rope ability, you can still hear it but there is nothing to see. Is this supposed to happen? Is my game bugging?

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FB_Esa
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Re: Awesome game, wish it was harder though...

Postby FB_Esa » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:57 am

Treznor wrote:Last: I downloaded the ps3 version yesterday (using usa gamecard) and noticed the rope mechanic of the thief is a little bit different. It now auto-attaches platforms. But when there are no platforms and you use the rope ability, you can still hear it but there is nothing to see. Is this supposed to happen? Is my game bugging?


Do you mean that you hear the sound effect of the rope being deployed? If so then i think its intentional as it indicates that the button press is processed.

EoA
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Re: Awesome game, wish it was harder though...

Postby EoA » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:56 pm

I have following proposition:
Create a new difficulty option (so everyone has a choice) with following settings:
- the average goblin will kill the hero in 2-3 hits maximum
- stronger goblins (like the ones with the flame swords) will kill the hero in 1-2 hit maximum
- ALL bosses will kill the hero in 1 hit and their health will be fully replenished after all heroes have died
- all enemies need to be stronger because they don't stand a chance against explosive arrows
- remove the flying-on-boxes cheat
- maximum of 2 respawn points per level
I think the this would be a real challenge after playing the game on any of the easier difficulty options.

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FB_Esa
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Re: Awesome game, wish it was harder though...

Postby FB_Esa » Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:13 pm

EoA wrote:I have following proposition:
Create a new difficulty option (so everyone has a choice) with following settings:
- the average goblin will kill the hero in 2-3 hits maximum
- stronger goblins (like the ones with the flame swords) will kill the hero in 1-2 hit maximum
- ALL bosses will kill the hero in 1 hit and their health will be fully replenished after all heroes have died
- all enemies need to be stronger because they don't stand a chance against explosive arrows
- remove the flying-on-boxes cheat
- maximum of 2 respawn points per level
I think the this would be a real challenge after playing the game on any of the easier difficulty options.


Normal goblins can actually kill the character in 3 hits if you play on hardest setting. Same goes with the flame sword goblin. He can kill you in 2 hits.
The bosses also can kill you with one hit :D

The maximum of 2 respawn points per level is abit trickier tho. Like previously mentioned, it would make some puzzles impossible to beat if you have one character dead. Some of the levels are quite long (Searock Castle for example) that it would be more of an annoyance than challenging.

All in all, good ideas and we have something in mind to make the game harder for you guys. No promises tho :wink:

Soulmancer
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Re: Awesome game, wish it was harder though...

Postby Soulmancer » Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:08 pm

One idea that might make everyone happy would be to expand the gameplay option menu with some additional tweaks and modifications you can enable or disable in regards to combat, puzzles and re-spawning. That way everyone can pretty much play through with their personal preference

harahyuna
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Re: Awesome game, wish it was harder though...

Postby harahyuna » Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:32 pm

Soulmancer wrote:One idea that might make everyone happy would be to expand the gameplay option menu with some additional tweaks and modifications you can enable or disable in regards to combat, puzzles and re-spawning. That way everyone can pretty much play through with their personal preference


I too agree with this idea. Although you can choose not to cheat using wizard flying trick but it'd be so much better if you can disable it in the options menu or at least remove it in Hard Difficulty as sometimes random players will still use it even when you tell them not to.

I hope there will be some new changes in Hard Difficulty like those suggested in this thread especially the checkpoints, wizard trick and puzzles. This will at least allow players who love a higher challenge of the game to be able to enjoy the harder difficulty in Hard Mode and the casual players to enjoy it in Easy/Normal mode. At the current difficulty settings, there simply isn't any major difference between easy and hard.

mystvearn
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Re: Awesome game, wish it was harder though...

Postby mystvearn » Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:30 pm

Well, I finished it 3 times medium setting (one time local co-op) now and missing some 10 - 20 orbs for the final upgrade. I noticed that the more I played, the less likely to almost never die from normal monster attacks and death usually comes from mistimed jumps, or being hit by acid/fire while trying all sorts of mechanism to pass from one part to the other. Those kind of errors have little to do with difficulty setting.

After the game update from steam, well it does make the last boss fight more interesting, but could fb start the game at the end boss rather than at the portal going through the boss then you need to sit through the cutscene (which you could fortunately skip)? Makes it a bit faster.

Herbert
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Friendly fire

Postby Herbert » Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:41 pm

I'd like to enable friendly fire. I'd add more fun (read: rage) to co-op as players would need to really watch their actions instead of mashing buttons.

Soulmancer
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Re: Awesome game, wish it was harder though...

Postby Soulmancer » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:26 pm

While the double-box floating trick and the wizard swap floating trick while playing multiplayer is an easy exploit for puzzles, my biggest issue is with combat... Combat is challenging but the problem is that there are pretty much check points at any major combat area that you can just stand on and be immortal and monsters don't heal/revive if you get wiped out and have to re-start...

I would love to see these fixed or options for tweaking these exploits.

WhiteMoon
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Re: Awesome game, wish it was harder though...

Postby WhiteMoon » Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:24 am

Soulmancer wrote:if you get wiped out completely it doesn't make a difference since when you re-spawn, all enemies you had killed along that path are still dead and bosses are still injured.

Soulmancer wrote:I hope a future patch or content update can add some type of "hardcore" game play

That's exactly the reason why I came here.

I played the game several times with two friends and with public, and I can say a major need to the game is to increase fights a lot : a bit more monsters, more often, all of them respawn if each hero die at least one time during the combat, or another possibility with waves of monsters all the game long, and why not creating special fighting maps... anyway, Trine 2 needs a new difficulty level, a "Trine Hard" level , for hardcore gamers :mrgreen:

I take the opportunity to say a big THANK YOU to all the Trine crew, I'm really glad to have bought both with humblebundle and to play the second one coop. I'm not fan of this sort of games but yours works very well ! I played many during 26 years of gaming (started at 7), and I can say you found a way to put a magical dimension in your game in many ways. Beautiful, enjoyable, well made, even bugs and tricks are enjoyable and can be used as another funny way to blow up time on your game.

Also thank you for reading us, answering, working on patchs to improve the game... it's pleasant !

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FB_Esa
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Re: Awesome game, wish it was harder though...

Postby FB_Esa » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:00 am

WhiteMoon wrote:
Soulmancer wrote:if you get wiped out completely it doesn't make a difference since when you re-spawn, all enemies you had killed along that path are still dead and bosses are still injured.

Soulmancer wrote:I hope a future patch or content update can add some type of "hardcore" game play

That's exactly the reason why I came here.

I played the game several times with two friends and with public, and I can say a major need to the game is to increase fights a lot : a bit more monsters, more often, all of them respawn if each hero die at least one time during the combat, or another possibility with waves of monsters all the game long, and why not creating special fighting maps... anyway, Trine 2 needs a new difficulty level, a "Trine Hard" level , for hardcore gamers :mrgreen:

I take the opportunity to say a big THANK YOU to all the Trine crew, I'm really glad to have bought both with humblebundle and to play the second one coop. I'm not fan of this sort of games but yours works very well ! I played many during 26 years of gaming (started at 7), and I can say you found a way to put a magical dimension in your game in many ways. Beautiful, enjoyable, well made, even bugs and tricks are enjoyable and can be used as another funny way to blow up time on your game.

Also thank you for reading us, answering, working on patchs to improve the game... it's pleasant !


Thank you for your kind words, we are very pleased that you liked the game. :)

If you are playing on Steam, may i suggest you try the newly added HC mode? It makes the game ALOT harder, even for us testers who had played it for quite a bit :P
It's not available on consoles yet but when the expansion hits, hopefully it will be included in that.

WhiteMoon
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Re: Awesome game, wish it was harder though...

Postby WhiteMoon » Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:17 am

First, know that gmail considers forum's email notifications as spam, that's why I saw your answer 3 days later. The forum's admin should be able to fix that.
Second, when using ingame french menu and subtitles, there is no HardCore nor Levitation options when creating a game.

If I'm real glad to see a HC mod, after testing it for an hour (difficult level), I would resume it as annoying :(
Without the HC option, the game is a great distraction that can be played being thoughtless, and that's very attractive as many games will require a lot of concentration and skill to get results. Trine is very recreational : you can do mistakes, go a bit fast, take big risks to try something knowing you'll die several times before fulfilled it... no problem because you know in case of dying, a mate will "repop" you soon and you'll be able to play again, and acting like that you will often find a tricky way to laugh.

Here, each one mistake will cost you a lot, as if you die you're condemned to stop playing, watching people trying to complete fights and reach next checkpoint without you, and if ever you play with someone with a lower skill than you, dying will almost be equivalent as restarting the level because in a few your mate will be dead and the game will make you restart the whole level !

It's so easy to get hurt, especially with Zoya when hooking, you will often touch spears or plants' fireballs, sometimes you will try to apply an object to neutralise a plant and make it fire a ball in your direction, it's easy to miss this detail and get the ball in your teeth, or you will have setted an object but will get hurt because the fireballs sometimes damage you through the plank or because a tiny small piece of spear isn't covered, or the camera will not move fast enough or offer you the angle you need from your position...

Dying during HC fights costs so much that you will camp and hide, waiting the ennemy to hit him without giving him any chance of approching you, rather than going through to let them know who's the boss and who can be the most skilled and efficient. This leads the player to take no risk during fights, making them more boring than fun :
Image Image
When you die and switch character you can also die just because you spawn on the ennemy who's not attacking, but just because you touch his weapon as spawning !

Those many small details that weren't an issue then become very irritating.

Also when one particular character is dead, you will confront situations that will become very hard or you will just not be able to go through (when you can't create a box for example), that means even if you still have one alive you'll never get to the next chekpoint, in other words you're already dead and have to restart the whole level... Same thing when the game becomes very hard (some parts can be extremely hard like when surfing the ice and jumping between stalactites before reaching ennemies).

I wouldn't say HC mode is a fail, as it can be an opportunity for extreme gamers in love with Trine to put to the test their skills at the highest level. But according to me Trine 2 has not been developped to match such gameplay, and isn't perfect and precise enough.

To resume, I was expecting a patch making the game more difficult, not (at all) more deadly ! At a pinch, when all characters dies together, I would have fun to restart the level from last checkpoint (as if it was just reached), not from the very first one.

Actually in this thread, I was expecting a Monsters mod : with stonger monsters (looks like it's the case with HC), with more monsters (3 or 4 times monsters minimum ! Meaning more reinforcements and meeting monsters more often, not just time to time) without falling in a survival game you'll not outlive (adding a stress I never looked for with Trine).

At least, next patch should modify all difficulty levels this way : when all 3 characters die and respawn from last checkpoint, all monsters and reinforcements respawn too and get full health back. I think every player would consider this particular detail as normal and playful, only the easy level could (eventually) remain in the present state.

Anyway thanks for having tryed this new way, and thanks for your attention.

Wolfenschfung
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Re: Awesome game, wish it was harder though...

Postby Wolfenschfung » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:11 pm

This game is hard, but everibody treated it in a subjective mode, that's my opinion. It's true that monsters are easy to beat, but other things are not easy. If you treated it like an adventure game, even if it's a platform blabla, first you will find harder enough to gather all achievements, and after that maybe you will want to find all exp little orbs or vials in the game. AND THIS IS HARD :)).

WhiteMoon
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Re: Awesome game, wish it was harder though...

Postby WhiteMoon » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:07 pm

Yes, but after having done all of that, monsters are lacking, even more.
Many gamers are used to fighting games, those who enjoy that part of the game would like many more :wink:

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FB_Esa
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Re: Awesome game, wish it was harder though...

Postby FB_Esa » Tue May 01, 2012 8:30 pm

Well the HC mode is supposed to be hard. It wouldn't be hardcore if it wasn't hard now would it? :)
There is also 3 levels of difficulty in HC mode.

HC mode easy has the 1x monster dmg/health
HC mode normal has 1.5x monster dmg/health
and HC mode hard has 2x monster dmg/health.

The HC mode features are the same tho.. Checkpoints can be only used once, if you die you'll start at the beginning of the level etc.

About adding more monsters, we thought about it and decided against it as adding more monsters into the battlefield would only cause more chaos and glitches. If we would've just added more respawns (meaning more enemies would spawn as you kill them) then the game would've become more like a tedious task of mindless fighting. There was a part in the original game that had way too many enemy spawns and it was boring and repetetive to go through that part.

But i will forward this to our design team and see what they have to say about your suggestions. So fret not, we do consider all of the feedback you guys give us :)


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