Trine 2 Patch 1.15 Feedback (Solved)

For discussion about Trine 2, released in December 2011 on Windows, Mac, Xbox, PlayStation Network and later on Linux and Wii U.
Borc
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Trine 2 Patch 1.15 Feedback (Solved)

Postby Borc » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:54 pm

I've tried the 1.15 Patch yesterday and noticed a small loss in fps but moreover the lighting is different (decreased) and overal sharpness of the scene is dramatically increased which I doubt is better. I show you three comparison shots with 1.14 and 1.15. 1280x800 4xSSAA+FXAA and max details (GTX560).

1.14: http://s14.directupload.net/images/120628/p3e9kfnh.png
http://s14.directupload.net/images/120628/27eprvpj.png
http://s7.directupload.net/images/120628/2arrhwfd.png

1.15: http://s1.directupload.net/images/120628/l2fu27fc.png
http://s7.directupload.net/images/120628/rtg7kjdh.png
http://s1.directupload.net/images/120628/eqrf8zml.png

The lighting can be decreased with patch 1.15 in some circumstances. The most obvious difference is the sharpness, 1.14 had a soften look whereas 1.15 looks extremely sharp now. I support the view that previous versions were a bit too soft/unsharp but 1.15 is far too much. The middle between 1.14 and 1.15 would be better in my opinion. I also noticed a big fps gain if I disable the FXAA in the config. Is this FXAA 3.11 or an older version? In case this is an older FXAA version I'm not surprised. FXAA 3.11 should'n be that fps hungry. The lighting is the next I liked more in 1.14, why is this decreased?


I have tested the performance with the integrated Intel HD Graphics 4000. FPS went down from 48 to 38 with lowest details. So it's not a good news for low end users this patch. The loading times are much faster btw on low settings than before with 1.14.

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fb_juha
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Re: Trine 2 Patch 1.15 Feedback

Postby fb_juha » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:47 pm

We are using 3.9 version of FXAA. As for speed, there shouldn't be any change on the speed of FXAA implementation. However, we have always run FXAA for the super sampled frame before down sampling. In other words, FXAA gets more expensive the higher super sampling level is being used.

As for the differences between 1.14 ja 1.15 there indeed seems to be something wrong. Looking at the images, there is a big difference in bloom intensity and also in overall sharpness. These are not intended change.

There was a lot of changes in the latest update. We'll investigate what went wrong. Thank you for the feedback and clear images!

Also, there should be a new patch available very soon which fixes some frame rate issues. Does this help with the integrated HD 4000?

Borc
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Re: Trine 2 Patch 1.15 Feedback

Postby Borc » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:21 pm

Even FXAA 3.10 should be a bit faster than 3.9, and as far as I know Timothy Lottes optimized FXAA 3.11 slightly more and should be the fastest of all. I can't find his posting anymore, maybe it was a twitter message. Here from 3.10:

FXAA 3.10 Soon
Just finished up the FXAA 3.10 update. Still need to do a little performance and image testing before I can release it (only tested thus far on my notebook). Teaser,

(0.) Re-introduced presets to FXAA Quality.
(1.) So better user control on quality/performance.
(2.) Have much better long edge support!
(3.) Default preset should be faster than FXAA 3.9.
(4.) Default preset will have higher long edge quality.
(5.) Possible faster new early exit.
http://timothylottes.blogspot.de/2011/0 ... -soon.html


Regarding the HD4000, it seems I forgot to lower the details from very high to very low. Version 1.15 marginally lowered it in a similar range 1-3 fps as my GTX560. Slightly slower but not as much as I thought fortunately.

Yes it's the bloom which decreased. I preferred the stronger bloom. The much stronger sharpness results also in a slightly stronger texture/shader flickering, for example the knight armour.

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fb_juha
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Re: Trine 2 Patch 1.15 Feedback

Postby fb_juha » Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:27 am

We are going to switch to fxaa 3.11 for expansion. It won't be a speed up as such, though, as higher detail levels will use higher fxaa quality settings.

We are going to patch the bloom/sharpness issue, but I can't promise any ETA at the moment.

Borc
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Re: Trine 2 Patch 1.15 Feedback

Postby Borc » Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:40 am

I think the slightly lowered performance and overall stronger sharpness might have something to do with the ingame downsampling. All is fine until I play with 1280x800 and 4xSSAA. If I play with driver downsampling [email protected] sharpness is fine and performance is slightly better. In previous Trine 2 versions driver downsampling and ingame SSAA gave me the same performance.

It's fine that you are going to use FXAA 3.11 but I hope you don't make the mistake to think higher quality settings= stronger blur

0.75, //fxaaQualitySubpix
0.166, //fxaaQualityEdgeThreshold
0.0833, //fxaaQualityEdgeThresholdMin

These are the default FXAA values recommended by Lottes. I think a lower subpix is good enough for Trine 2 and it's also slightly faster. For example 0.50 subpix, less blur than 0.75 and a bit faster.

Borc
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Re: Trine 2 Patch 1.15 Feedback

Postby Borc » Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:01 pm

I can say the problem is gone with the 1.16 update. Well done.

Borc
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Re: Trine 2 Patch 1.15 Feedback (Solved)

Postby Borc » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:16 am

1.16 versus 1.17 1280x800 Very High 4xSSAA+FXAA

1.16
http://s14.directupload.net/images/120827/27t6xfwo.png
http://s7.directupload.net/images/120827/lu538unk.png
http://s14.directupload.net/images/120827/wnrfvycz.png

1.17
http://s1.directupload.net/images/120827/9z24xdhb.png
http://s1.directupload.net/images/120827/4kt2nb9y.png
http://s14.directupload.net/images/120827/oewh4bij.png


Bloom intensity decreased in 1.17, is this intended? Furthermore the sharpness slightly increased, is that because of better textures or bicubic downsampling? If the second, I guess the lowered performance is caused by bicubic downsampling?

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fb_juha
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Re: Trine 2 Patch 1.15 Feedback (Solved)

Postby fb_juha » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:02 am

It's a combination of several things.

Bloom quality has been increased on higher shader detail levels (it's less blocky), and it's using more texture samples to do this. Another change is that we filter away tiny bright pixels as they were causing some flickering. It also means that overall bloom intensity has come down somewhat.

From top of my head other changes that affect performance are improved dof, improved bloom, significanly improved shadows, slightly improved light calculations, improved numeric range on light render targets and improved super sampling. And yes, downsampling from anti aliased image now uses bicubic scaling on highest detail level and that does increase sharpness a bit. We are also using improved normal map format, but that shouldn't affect performance.

Changes above affect high/very detail levels in varying degree. There are also some general rendering changes to enable features needed in DLC maps. These give constant overhead which will be optimized away in next patch.

Borc
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Re: Trine 2 Patch 1.15 Feedback (Solved)

Postby Borc » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:16 am

How can I switch between bilinear and bicubic? I want to test it a little bit more how it compares. You talked about the optionally FXAA sharpness boost by the bicubic in the options.txt (whatever it means), is that something you add in the future? The only new thing I found is DevShaderProcessingQualitySelection.

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fb_juha
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Re: Trine 2 Patch 1.15 Feedback (Solved)

Postby fb_juha » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:27 am

Bicubic/FXAA controls haven't been implemented yet. I'm hoping they'd get in 'soon', but I can't promise exact time frame at the moment. DevShaderProcessingQualitySelection is a development feature which doesn't do anything in the actual game.

It's not exact comparison, but currently you can switch between bicubic and bilinear scaling by changing detail level between very high and high. It will change other rendering settings as well, but generally the effect of those shouldn't be that big.

Borc
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Re: Trine 2 Patch 1.15 Feedback (Solved)

Postby Borc » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:49 am

Shader quality High instead very high uses the old bilinear? Ok I will try.

Borc
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Re: Trine 2 Patch 1.15 Feedback (Solved)

Postby Borc » Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:19 pm

I have tested a bit. I can hardly spot differences between very high and high Shader Quality. The only obvious difference for me is the sharpness by using 4xSSAA. Looks to me like bilinear for high and very high bicubic because it looks sharper. I think FXAA controls are not needed, only the bicubic controls to tweak it slightly.

Borc
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Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:28 pm

Re: Trine 2 Patch 1.15 Feedback (Solved)

Postby Borc » Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:10 pm

I googled for different downfilter types. This guy wrote Lanczos is best for reducing, did you give it a try how it looks in Trine?


Bilinear is fast but rather low quality. Best avoided unless you are looking to reduce bitrate.

Bicubic delivers sharper results than Bilinear. It is best for enlarging. When reducing it can lead to a lot of moire artifacts.

Lanczos is best for reducing. It gives sharp results with less artifacting than Bicubic. For enlarging it about the same as Bicubic.

http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/2557 ... or-Bicubic

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fb_juha
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Re: Trine 2 Patch 1.15 Feedback (Solved)

Postby fb_juha » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:33 pm

Expansion launch also enabled sharpness control for SSAA.

These settings can be found from %APPDATA%/Trine2/options.txt :

Code: Select all

setOption(renderingModule, "BicubicAA", -1)
setOption(renderingModule, "BicubicAASharpness", 0.30000001192093)


First one controls when the effect is enabled. Default, -1, will enable bicubic AA only on very high graphics quality level. Setting this to 0 will always disable the effect. Value 1 will enable bicubic AA if you are using very high or high graphics quality. It's not supported on anything lower.

BicubicAASharpness controls the amount of sharpness to apply. Default is 0.3 which gives a touch of extra sharpness. There is no hard limit on the value here, but values past 1 will start to give increasing amount of artifacts.

We haven't experimented much with different filters. We added bicubic to give images a touch of sharpness as combination of FXAA and SSAA tend to generate a bit smooth image.

Borc
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Re: Trine 2 Patch 1.15 Feedback (Solved)

Postby Borc » Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:49 pm

Thanks, that works. 0.3 is already well balanced in combination with FXAA. Texture sharpness is slightly higher compared to Bilinear SSAA. I for myself don't need more sharpness. It's a different story when playing without FXAA, then Bilinear or Bicubic 0.0 sharpness should be enough.


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