Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

For discussion about Trine, firstly released in 2009 for Windows and on PlayStation Network.
spyboy
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Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby spyboy » Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:34 pm

I played the demo through a few times, then pre-ordered the game on Steam. Played for 6 hours last night, enjoying all the puzzles and physics aspects of the game.

Then I reach the Tower... (I'm assuming it's the end level)

You have to scale the tower (platform jumping) while lava is rising and the ghost is putting obstacles in your path. The game goes from an incredible game play puzzle experience to a stupid timed dexterity game. Any misstep or bad timing and you fall in the lava. The only character worth playing on that level is the thief, with flaming arrows to destroy the obstacles and her grappling line to gain distance from the lava. If she dies, the other characters are pretty useless.

Utterly disappointing.

- spyboy

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FB_Lauri
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Re: Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby FB_Lauri » Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:45 pm

I agree this will be very controversial level, and it is a bit different than the gameplay before that.

I still suggest to give it a few tries, as it should be seen more like as a "boss fight". Also, the level itself does act like a big puzzle :wink:

spyboy
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Re: Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby spyboy » Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:55 pm

I've played that level about 10 times, and I'm just short of smashing my keyboard through my monitor :)

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FB_Lauri
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Re: Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby FB_Lauri » Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:09 pm

spyboy wrote:I've played that level about 10 times, and I'm just short of smashing my keyboard through my monitor :)


It's more rewarding once you complete it :)

And btw, our programmers tried it as 3 player co-op .. it took them more than 60 tries and like 3 hours to complete it :wink:

(but like I said, the whole level is also one big puzzle - if you find out certain things, and develop a nice tactic, it's actually rather easy. And ALL characters have very good use in the level :D)

Matra
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Re: Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby Matra » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:53 pm

It is frustrating at first, but once you play through a couple times, you figure out which hero is best for each part of it. While the Thief, as you said, is good for most of the early climbing, the Knight can destroy obstacles while he moves, as well as block the spiked balls.

I had a lot of trouble when I initially tried the level, but there are some shortcuts you can take that save you a lot of time/trouble. For example, when you get to the seesaw, instead of trying to use the platforms to the left, only to find the obstacles make you go backwards, you can drop a box on one side and grapple the other. When you find a couple of those kind of tricks, it really isn't all that difficult.

Kirby
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Re: Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby Kirby » Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:24 pm

spyboy wrote:If she dies, the other characters are pretty useless.


Warning: Spoiler, don't click of you don't want to see it...
YouTube - Trine Tower [Wizard Only] (Difficulty is on "Very Hard", although that doesn't change much on that level)

Got it on 6th try or so, route is the same as I took when I was originally doing the "Better than Developers!" achievement.

First Play-Through took a lot longer ofcourse :)

DarkJee
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Re: Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby DarkJee » Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:46 am

Well, the only character that it was kind of easy on that level was with the wizard, because you have to be calm to make that level, so you just have to move away the objects that he's drawing. And its the only one that can deal with the spike sphere too

Kirby
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Re: Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby Kirby » Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:19 am

DarkJee wrote:Well, the only character that it was kind of easy on that level was with the wizard, because you have to be calm to make that level, so you just have to move away the objects that he's drawing. And its the only one that can deal with the spike sphere too


I'm currently uploading a Thief-Only version.
Knight-Only kind of sucks though... the first jump is way too huge for him, I did jump up with the thief and managed the rest with the knight only... if someone's interested in a knight-only tower-part I could try to repeat it.

Edit: Done uploading: Trine Tower [Thief Only] (SPOILER, don't click unless you already know what to expect)

F34R
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Re: Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby F34R » Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:41 am

You guys are killing me!! I wanted to wait for the PSN version, but I might have to just get it for PC lol.

trinerowdies
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Re: Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby trinerowdies » Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:18 am

F34R wrote:You guys are killing me!! I wanted to wait for the PSN version, but I might have to just get it for PC lol.


Just get it :)
Been playing most of the afternoon and it is completely absorbing. Great job FB!

tomnc
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Re: Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby tomnc » Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:31 am

FB_Lauri wrote:And btw, our programmers tried it as 3 player co-op .. it took them more than 60 tries and like 3 hours to complete it :wink:


That's a good thing? I'm guessing it's probably a lot tougher as a co-op? Trying 60 times doesn't sound like fun.

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FB_Lauri
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Re: Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby FB_Lauri » Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:44 am

tomnc wrote:
FB_Lauri wrote:And btw, our programmers tried it as 3 player co-op .. it took them more than 60 tries and like 3 hours to complete it :wink:


That's a good thing? I'm guessing it's probably a lot tougher as a co-op? Trying 60 times doesn't sound like fun.


Well, 3 programmers (who, surprisingly, had not played the game that much if at all), a few beers and 3 player co-op .. it is a bit harder :D

bsv
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Re: Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby bsv » Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:13 pm

spyboy wrote:I played the demo through a few times, then pre-ordered the game on Steam. Played for 6 hours last night, enjoying all the puzzles and physics aspects of the game.

Then I reach the Tower... (I'm assuming it's the end level)

The game goes from an incredible game play puzzle experience to a stupid timed dexterity game.
Utterly disappointing.


That is EXACTLY what I came here to post. Having a timed level is the only thing I was afraid it was going to happen towards the end, sooo disappointing. Game was really going very well (got through the whole game nonstop, that's pretty rare for me)... guess something had to go wrong.
Still assuming it is the last level, that would be the only crappy part of the game. Timed events always ruins the good games..

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FB_Lauri
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Re: Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby FB_Lauri » Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:22 pm

It is controversial, but there are also a number of people who like it. However, we will look into making it easier with easy difficulty (for the rest of the difficulties it's however working fine I think).

It would however help us to do correct tweaks if people who have completed the last level tell their feelings about it. Eventually, it all comes to the rewarding point when you complete the game, and I think that matters more than the flawless accomplishment of the entire game :D

(flawless accomplishment, as we have seen, turns out to be a discussion about game length .. :wink: )

spyboy
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Re: Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby spyboy » Sun Jul 05, 2009 4:15 pm

I finally finished the level after a few dozen tries (I would get so frustrated I've have to walk away for a bit).

I'm still not a fan of timed levels, I feel it's a cheap way to engage the player (usually annoying them).

Stick to the physics puzzles, they're much more enjoyable.

darkskill
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Re: Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby darkskill » Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:08 pm

spyboy wrote:I finally finished the level after a few dozen tries (I would get so frustrated I've have to walk away for a bit).

Stick to the physics puzzles, they're much more enjoyable.


I agree.
Ive just finished the last level on medium and it was quite hard.
However it was reqarding after i compleated it :D
Physics puzzels are more enjoyable but i like the varity.

One thing i would suggest is that you put checkpoints up the tower, like half way or somthing so you dont have to redo it all.

spyboy
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Re: Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby spyboy » Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:14 pm

Even the checkpoint at the top doesn't do anything (other than recharge your chars), you still start at the base if you die.

orunin
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Re: Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby orunin » Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:02 pm

spyboy wrote:Even the checkpoint at the top doesn't do anything (other than recharge your chars), you still start at the base if you die.

A checkpoint revives characters (unless this one is tweaked). As far as I know, you run by it again as many times as you want to bring them back to life without any limits.

I personally liked the last level. I'll admit that it's a little frustrating at first because you don't expect it, but after a few tries you get used to it. It's still a puzzle, especially for "Better Than Developers" when you have to figure out the tricks to get by every single obstacle flawlessly.

ZedPower
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Re: Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby ZedPower » Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:04 pm

Once you get to the checkpoint, the lava stops rising, and the enemies are the only real threat. Considering that you get infinite revives, the rest of the tower is trivial to complete.

Personally I found the last level to be excellent. And frankly, with all the complaints I read beforehand, I thought it was going to be much longer and more difficult. It's there to test all the skills you've built up during the game, and beating it feels like an accomplishment. I mean, what if the tower was a regular level, and at the end it's like "There's the artifact! You win!" and then credits? Would that have been better? Of course not, that would be completely anticlimactic.

I also hear people complaining that they don't have time to practice and get good at video games anymore, but that's flawed reasoning. Let's say the tower level doesn't exist, and instead there are 20 levels in the entire game. Would you play those extra levels? Of course you would. But think about it: it might take you maybe 3-4 hours to complete these extra levels. As things are now, there's no way practicing to beat the Tower would take you 3-4 hours. I played on hard, and I'm not that good at platformers, and it took me like 12 tries over maybe 30 minutes. If you'd have time to play five more levels of the game, you have more than enough time to practice and beat the Tower. The Tower's not that long, people, it's just intense.

The game needed a challenging finale, a real test of ability. And it got one. Good job, Frozenbyte!

orunin
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Re: Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby orunin » Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:07 pm

ZedPower wrote:It's there to test all the skills you've built up during the game, and beating it feels like an accomplishment. I mean, what if the tower was a regular level, and at the end it's like "There's the artifact! You win!" and then credits? Would that have been better? Of course not, that would be completely anticlimactic.
....
The game needed a challenging finale, a real test of ability. And it got one. Good job, Frozenbyte!


Quoted for emphasis.

DarkJee
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Re: Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby DarkJee » Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:32 pm

ZedPower wrote:It's there to test all the skills you've built up during the game, and beating it feels like an accomplishment. I mean, what if the tower was a regular level, and at the end it's like "There's the artifact! You win!" and then credits? Would that have been better? Of course not, that would be completely anticlimactic.

The game needed a challenging finale, a real test of ability. And it got one. Good job, Frozenbyte!


Agreed! and its not soo difficult, I just got the "Better than developpers" achievement!

but taking the 10 experience potions was more challlenging, at least you can take it in as many run as you want, what would it be if you would have to take them all in one shot lol

Shancial
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Re: Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby Shancial » Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:36 pm

The last level completely ruined the experience for me. Sorry but the ending was REALLY disappointing. I didn't feel like I had completed the game :( I was expecting an epic physics battle but no.

For the game, 7 / 10. (Would have been 9 if the ending had been different.)
Also, there were some bugs here and there.
Skeletons don't always die when they fall to the spikes and continued hitting me with arrows, physics engine needs bit tweaking, nothing major though.

Still the best finnish game IMO.

Matra
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Re: Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby Matra » Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:09 am

Shancial wrote:For the game, 7 / 10. (Would have been 9 if the ending had been different.)

You think at least 20% of the game is determined by the final level? That seems rather silly.

Shancial wrote:Also, there were some bugs here and there.

Every game has bugs, but there is not a single game-ruining bug that I have encountered, which is much better than most games these days are releasing. Yes, there are times when the ghost on the last level stops moving, but it's not like you're playing an early Beta version of the game.

Shancial wrote:Skeletons don't always die when they fall to the spikes and continued hitting me with arrows

Neither do you. They aren't supposed to be one-hit-kills.

I enjoyed the last level. It blindsides you at first, but once you know what it is you have to do, it is rather entertaining.

lupercaleb
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Re: Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby lupercaleb » Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:33 am

if you are quick with the wizard, his platform is incredibly helpful during the thief's climb. you also need the wizard to move the large spiked balls, and the platform again definitely helps to reach the goal. you may not use him often, but he is needed. if you were playing on very hard, two hits from the spiked balls will kill the thief

the knight is invaluable to survive the skeletons and the bats, unless you're feeling careless enough to let yourself die knowing you'll just resurrect at the checkpoint

let's divide it into phases. know that this is just my opinion, there are several ways to do this level i'm sure

first phase: thief, climbing

second phase: wizard, moving the spiked balls

third phase: thief and wizard, climbing with the help of wizard's platform

fourth phase: knight, fend off the undead and bats

fifth phase: everyone. knight needs to continue to keep the area clear to give a safe amount of room for the wizard to create a platform for the thief to reach the goal

this is all assuming: single player, your skills are maxed, very hard difficulty, you don't want to take damage or die

______________

i wish that the knight was more viable in the climbing phase, but he simply can't move fast enough in comparison to the thief considering how he destroys objects. if he was able to jump, slash to destroy the object in his way, then land onto the next platform, he would be awesome. but if he attacks while mid-air he is not going to make it

GVBN
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Re: Tower Level - Frozenbyte fails!

Postby GVBN » Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:25 pm

Fun level, reminds me of Toxic Tower level from DKC2


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